SAVE THE DATE!
The 17th Annual Electric Aircraft Symposium is planned for
Sat, July 22 and Sun, July 23, 2023 at the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh!
About the 2022 event
The VFS 16th Annual Electric Aircraft Symposium was a great success!! More than 40 of the world's leading electric aircraft developers and technology experts spoke, and more than 100 people registered in person and nearly 100 attended virtually! Read our Vertiflite summary article, Engaging Electric Aircraft.
Video recordings and presentation slides are now available!
You can also check out some of the photos and insights from the event, as live tweeted during the event.
Updated Nov. 23, 2022
Thank You to Our 2022 Sponsors!
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About EAS
Originally established in 2007 by the CAFE Foundation, the VFS Electric Aircraft Symposium is the world's longest running annual conference on electric aviation!
Check out the previous VFS/CAFE Electric Aircraft Symposium programs and presentations:
2022: 16th Annual EAS — Program | Speakers & Agenda | Article | 12.5 Hours of Videos
2021: 15th Annual EAS — Program | Speakers & Agenda | Article | 16.5 Hours of Videos
2020: 14th Annual EAS — Program | Speakers & Agenda | Summary | 12.5 Hours of Videos
2019: 13th Annual EAS — Program | Speakers & Agenda | Synopsis | 26 Presentation Videos
2018: 12th Annual EAS — Program | Speakers & Agenda | Summary | 19 Presentation Videos
Interested in learning more about eVTOL, eSTOL and eCTOL aircraft? Subscribe to the VFS eVTOL News newsletter!
Yolanka Wulff is Executive Director of CAMI, the Community Air Mobility Initiative, a nonprofit organization whose mission is to support the responsible integration of aviation into community transportation through education, communication, and collaboration. Yolanka is responsible for CAMI’s programs including the development of topical resources, webinars, conferences, and collaborations. This includes the Urban Air Policy Collaborative, a cohort-based curriculum for state and local agencies and airports. Prior to co-founding CAMI in 2019, she was a sustainable aviation consultant for ten years, working with industry, government, academia and nonprofits on policy, standards, industry development, market challenges, and communications. Yolanka is a nonprofit and business attorney and consultant with over two decades of experience in the successful development, implementation, and management of mission-driven programs, with a focus on sustainable transportation, land use, and collaborative solutions. Yolanka is a member of the Transportation Research Board New Users of Shared Airspace Committee, the GAMA Electric Propulsion Innovation Committee, and is the organizer and convener of annual Electric Aircraft Symposium.
Rex is a 40-year veteran of aviation and is the co-founder and president of Five-Alpha (5alpha;) LLC, a globally recognized aeronautical consultancy specialized in helicopter and vertical flight infrastructure development, safety, training, and education. He currently serves as Infrastructure Advisor to the Vertical Flight Society, is Co-chair of the U.S. Helicopter Safety Team’s (USHST) Infrastructure Working Group and is a committee member on the National Fire Protection (NFPA) 418, Standard for Heliports. He is past president of the National EMS Pilots Associating (NEMSPA) and past president of the Indiana Association of Air Medical Services (INAAMS).
Mr. Johnny T. Doo is the President of International Vehicle Research, Inc., focusing on autonomous electric-powered vertical flight vehicles for “Mission-for-Good” applications. He is the Group Lead of the NASA/VFS Transformative Vertical Flight (TVF) Working Group 4 - Public Services. Teaming with over 100 industry leaders and experts to develop the roadmap and use cases for Advanced Air Mobility (AAM)/eVTOL enabled search & rescue, firefighting, disaster relief, emergency/humanitarian response, law enforcement, medical transport, and military operations. He is also the lead author of the “NASA Electric Vertical Takeoff and Landing (eVTOL) Aircraft Technology for Public Services” white paper.
Col Diller received his commission from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 2000. After simultaneous master’s degrees at Harvard and MIT, he attended Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training and flew F-16s for two Combat Air Force assignments, becoming an instructor pilot. He was selected for the French Test Pilot school and then completed his first test tour at Edwards AFB, supporting B-1, B-2, F-16, F-22 and F-35 flight test and instructing at the Test Pilot School. He served as an Executive Officer to the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board and as a Defense Advanced Research Project Agency Service Chiefs Fellow. Upon completing a program management tour at the Space and Missile Center, he took command of the 586th Flight Test Squadron, supervising classified flight test for joint, interagency and international clients. Col Diller attended the Eisenhower School, completing the Senior Acquistion Course and was assigned as the Air and Space Branch Chief in the Joint Staff J8. He then became that Assistant Director of Aeronautics at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy and served at the Office of the Secretary of Defense Strategic Capabilties Office and the Department of the Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office.
Dr. Tine Tomažič was born in 1983 and received B.Sc. and Ph.D. in electrical engineering from University of Ljubljana in 2007 and 2014 respectively. His work in systems automation and human machine interfaces ranges from autopilot technologies for unmanned aerial vehicles to electric and hybrid-electric propulsion systems. Tomažič was involved in development of world's first 2-seat and world's first electric 4-seat aircraft, the Taurus Electro and the Taurus G4. His current research is in the field of certifiable hybrid-electric propulsion systems and their intuitive user interfaces, where besides being involved in the development, Tomazic is active in the working group with ASTM F44.40 to rewrite current General Aviation design standards to allow proliferation of electric flight. He is the CTO of Pipistrel.
CTO and Co-Founder of Electro.Aero, Josh has over a dozen years of experience developing and commercialising electric propulsion and autonomous systems. He is an entrepreneur and robotics engineer who has specialised in electric propulsion technologies. Josh founded Electro.Aero to help safely propel the sustainable aviation industry, through developing and commercialising electric charging systems for aircraft development partners, including electrical management systems and other propulsion sub-systems. Josh also founded the SAE AE-7D committee for aircraft charging standards in 2018.
Marc Ausman is a recognized expert in the fields of next-generation electric and autonomous aircraft. He is the Chief Product Officer at Electra.aero and previously was co-founder and CEO of Airflow.aero, a company that developed electric Short Take-Off and Landing (eSTOL) aircraft. He most recently served as Chief Strategist for the Airbus Vahana urban air mobility project, and before that he was President of Vertical Power and also was part of the team at Eclipse Aviation to bring to market the world’s first very light jet. Marc served with the US Navy as a Naval Aviator and holds a commercial pilot certificate with multiengine and instrument ratings.
Adrienne Lindgren is a trained urban planner and economic development professional, with a focus on integrating advanced transportation technology into the built environment to enhance urban and regional mobility outcomes. Adrienne joined Hyundai Motor Group in 2020 to build and lead Supernal’s state and local partnerships team; in this capacity, Adrienne partners with entities across the globe to better understand how UAM technology can deliver universal, affordable, and human-centered cities, while driving and supporting initiatives that increase capacity for UAM solutions in a multi-modal mobility environment. Her work is guided by principles of equity, accessibility, and ecological and fiscal sustainability.
Manal Habib is the CEO and founder of MightyFly. A graduate from both MIT and Stanford, Habib has developed a strong technical background in aerospace engineering. She previously specialized in flight controls and developed the first robust commercial flight controller. Manal is also a private pilot and in the process of building her own airplane. Her passion for aerospace, vision for a better world, and determination make her a motivated and unstoppable entrepreneur and leader.
Mr. James Sherman has over 25 years of business development, project management and engineering experience with expertise in developing technology for aerospace, automotive, military, and consumer products. Jim Sherman joined VFS in May 2019 as the Society's Director of Strategic Development, responsible for setting and executing the Society’s strategy for promoting membership development and growth. Jim in particular is responsible for supporting the development of the "Electric VTOL Revolution" and expanding the Society’s membership in this fast-growing market segment.
Willi Tacke, the founder and CEO of Flying Pages GmbH, is a pioneering advocate for electric aviation. Willi Tacke has been working for aviation publications since 1983 as an editor, test flight editor, editor in chief, publisher and presenter. He is a fixed wing private pilot, hang glider and paraglider instructor. Ever since his first flight in an electric ultralight in 2009, he has flown in several electric airplanes. He is the organizer and founder of the annual e-flight-expo which is the world’s first electric aviation trade show at AERO Friedrichshafen in Germany since 2009. He is the also the founder and the host of the annual e-flight-forum in China since 2017.
Dave Merrill is the co-founder and CEO of Elroy Air, where he leads a team of kind, dedicated experts working to expand the reach of express logistics. Dave is a technology executive and startup founder with a background in computer science and robotic, interactive systems. Alumnus of MIT (Ph.D.) and Stanford Computer Science / Symbolic Systems (BS, MS), and TED speaker. Elroy Air is developing advanced, autonomous, safe vertical-takeoff-and-landing (VTOL) cargo aircraft systems in collaboration with NASA and the US Air Force. The company has been featured by Wired, Forbes, VentureBeat, The Verge, Aviation Week, TechCrunch, Business Insider, and eVTOL.
Dr. Anita Sengupta is an aerospace engineer and entrepreneur, commercial pilot, rocket scientist, and veteran of the space program. She has developed technologies that have enabled the exploration of Mars, asteroids, and deep space at NASA for 20 years. She is now CEO of Hydroplane Ltd., which is developing hydrogen fuel cell power plant technology for carbon emission free aviation. Hydroplane is an awardee of the US Air Force Agility Prime program to develop the novel hydrogen fuel cell powerplant for a range of aviation use cases in the governmental and commercial space.
Maxime Gariel is the CTO of Xwing, a startup focusing on Autonomy for aviation. He has developed flight control systems for manned and unmanned fixed and rotary-wing aircraft ranging from 20lbs to over 100,000 lbs. Maxime earned his MS and PhD in Aerospace Engineering focusing on Air Traffic Management and Controls from Georgia Tech and his BS from ISAE-Supaéro (France).
Clint has a diverse 23-year career with practical experiences in aviation planning, airport & heliport operations, uncrewed aerial vehicle facilities planning, airspace management, emergency management, and education & training. After military retirement, he pursued his passion for cities with a Master of City and Metropolitan Planning and a Graduate Certificate in Urban Design. His focus today is to link transportation and land use decisions to maximize infrastructure and create new opportunities through collaboration. As Los Angeles’ Urban Air Mobility Fellow, Clint facilitates relationships to empower industry partners, non-aviation stakeholders, and city staff to make informed, holistic decisions around integrated Advanced Air Mobility technology.
Mitch Heaton joined Hartzell Propeller in January 2022 to lead Hartzell’s strategy and efforts for Advanced Air Mobility. Hartzell is the global leader in advanced aircraft propeller design and manufacturing technology, and is the supplier of choice for nearly every major aircraft manufacturer. Using an innovative blend of sophisticated engineering analytics, certification skills and world class manufacturing technologies, Hartzell is working closely with several AAM OEM’s to fine-tune their propeller applications. Hartzell has dedicated tens of thousands of engineering hours to electric, hybrid and hydrogen powered aircraft since 2019.
Prior to NEXA, Mr. Dyment was Senior Managing Director with PricewaterhouseCoopers, responsible for key aerospace and defense industry clients. He served in the business consulting unit of Arthur Andersen LLP, where he was the global managing partner of its Aviation Industry Practice.
Ryan is a senior specialist with Joby Aviation’s government affairs team. In this role, he leads numerous regulatory, policy and standards development initiatives to facilitate the introduction of a new generation of safe, quiet and sustainable electric aircraft. Ryan joined Joby following two years with the Uber Elevate project, Uber's initiative to develop and launch a multimodal air-taxi service called Uber Air. Ryan studied aerospace engineering at the Georgia Institute of Technology, and also holds a Bachelors in Economics from SUNY Binghamton.
He joined Crown after a 29-year career NASA Glenn Research Center where he served as Director of Aeronautics providing executive leadership for aeronautics R&D programs and projects for the Center. An expert in advanced propulsion systems he developed and executed NASA's strategy for commercial subsonic aircraft technologies research and pioneered the development of national strategies for advancing the electrification of aircraft propulsion systems.
Matt Walters is the Head of Corporate Development for Eve Air Mobility where he is excited to be growing the Urban Air Mobility ecosystem. Matt has worked with Embraer since 2017 in developing solutions for the evolving Urban Air Mobility industry, including co-authoring EmbraerX’s Urban Air Traffic Management white paper, Flight Plan 2030.
In January 2022, Mark Henning took on the position as Managing Director at AutoFlight Europe, which based in Augsburg/Germany. The aeronautical engineer and graduate of Munich’s Technical University has worked in the aviation industry for 26 years. Mr. Henning started his career at DASA and held leadership positions at EADS and Eurocopter. Previously, he was Manager for Governmental Business at the helicopter division of Airbus and head of product EC135. He has also held positions in program management, strategy, production and development and has worked for the Airbus Group in Indonesia, South Korea, Israel, South Africa and the United States.
Working inside startups including ZeroAvia, Venus Aerospace, and Regent Craft, Christian has invented novel technologies and led invention and patents strategy. Previously, he founded and co-led two startups including a defense technology company acquired by GPI. He holds a BA and MA in Economics from the University of Oxford and studied molecular biology, materials science, and aerospace as a Fellow at MIT.
An Aerospace Engineer by training, Oliver Reinhardt has played an instrumental role to more than 9 aircraft certification projects in the past 25 years. As CTO at Flight Design, he managed the Design Organization setup and certified, manufactured, and delivered aircraft to 42 countries world-wide. In addition, he served as industry representative on several major international Aviation Rulemaking Committees. At Volocopter, Oliver combines his aviation and additional automotive background to manage all product and corporate certification aspects, along with the Quality, Risk, Safety, and Compliance Management Systems.
Mandy Nelson was appointed to the role of Director of Strategic Relationships, AAM in January 2022. In this role she supports Bristow’s global AAM efforts through cultivating robust and productive strategic relationships with AAM partners, manufacturers, and other key global AAM stakeholders. Mandy is also a Commercial Pilot (MEL, SEL, Instrument Airplane).
Paul leads teams planning and building sustainable transportation and distributed clean energy infrastructure. Paul sits on the board of Forth, an organization advancing clean transportation and North America Council for Freight Efficiency (NACFE). Paul was lead author of Smart Electric Power Alliance’s “Preparing for an Electric Vehicle Future: How Utilities Can Succeed;” “Black & Veatch’s Electric Fleets: 8 Steps to Medium and Heavy-Duty Fleet Electrification;” “Priming the US Grid for High Power Charging” and the NIA-NASA Urban Air Mobility Infrastructure Study, “Powered for Take Off”, detailing energy and infrastructure requirements for Electric Vertical Take-off and Landing Vehicles (eVTOL).
Addison is Head of Americas for Skyports, leading the company’s commercial efforts in the region to acquire, design & build, and operate vertiports for air taxis. His team addresses real estate agreements, local stakeholder engagement, regulatory approvals, airport planning, operational procedures, and enabling technology required to develop and operate a safe, efficient, passenger-friendly vertiport. He began his career as a mechanical engineer designing jet engines at GE Aviation in Cincinnati. Following that, he joined McKinsey as a management consultant, serving clients in aerospace & defense and other industrials on a range of strategic and operational topics. He is located in Boston.
Bud Skriba, as a Peace Corps Volunteer-Peru ‘67, worked in the amazon jungle. There the need for a cheap, cargo lifting VTOL aircraft concept that did NOT use aviation fuel, was fully understood. 1970, in New Business Ventures Division of 3M’s Central Research Laboratory, he provided product development, for breakthrough Multi-Layer-Insulation films, H2 adsorbers, glass bubble material for tanking. His first job evaluated all Hydrogen economy technology issues at 3M.
Del is VP of R&D at Autonodyne – prime for USAF Vanguard programs Skyborg (uncrewed attributable aircraft) and Golden Horde (networked collaborative weapons). Efforts have also focused on Autonomous Flight in the NAS as well as SVO in concert w/ NASA/FAA. Del is an experienced 24-yr AF aviator in 10 USAF aircraft and has led autonomy, AI and ML efforts at the AF Academy where he has been faculty for 15 years.
Darrell has established himself as a subject matter expert regarding electric aviation and how it will lead to a future of distributed aviation. His knowledge encompasses electric aircraft infrastructure requirements as well as defining market opportunities for emerging electric Low Cost Carriers (eLCCs). He is an advisor to NASA’s Transformative Vertical Flight programme, the Advance Air Mobility panel at ADS Group, the Community Air Mobility Initiative and is a former board member of the British Aviation Group which is the largest trade body in the UK representing over 220-member companies. Darrell has over 20 years’ experience as an aviation consultant on airport masterplanning projects thru to airport acquisition advisory services.Mr. Johnny T. Doo is the President of International Vehicle Research, Inc., focusing on innovations in flight vehicle technology, product development, and applications. His efforts including strategic consulting with global customers on business planning, product development & market strategy. Recent projects include designing a personal air mobility system and the successful development of a utility UAS for agriculture and cargo delivery operations. He is also the Lead of the NASA Transformative Vertical Flight Working Group on Public Services, teaming with over 100 industry leaders and experts to develop the roadmap and use-cases for disaster relief, humanitarian aid, search & rescue, police & firefighting, medical transport, and military eVTOL applications.
Adam Cohen is a mobility futures researcher with the Innovative Mobility Research group at the Transportation Sustainability Research Center of the University of California, Berkeley. Since joining the group in 2004, his research has focused on innovative urban mobility solutions, including urban air mobility, shared mobility, urban goods delivery, automation, smart cities, smartphone apps, and other emerging technologies. Cohen recently completed two exploratory studies of the opportunities and challenges of urban air mobility for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and a manufacturer. He has also co-authored numerous articles and reports in peer-reviewed journals and conference proceedings.
Devon Jedamski is the Chief Engineer at Whisper Aero, where he is leading the development of the next generation of quiet electric propulsors for the DoD and regional air mobility market. Prior to Whisper Aero, Devon worked at Northrop Grumman in the Advanced Design organization as a Principal Investigator leading over $25M in DoD contracts. His work at NG focused on the design of aircraft with novel propulsion integration concepts ranging from low speed hybrid-electric aircraft to supersonic jet aircraft. Devon’s career has spanned multiple disciplines relevant to electric aircraft design ranging from turbine based propulsion systems to aerodynamics, thermal management systems, electrical power systems, and renewable energy technology. He received his Master’s degree from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology while performing research as the Rolls-Royce Sir Frank Whittle Fellow exploring unsteady aerodynamics in turbine engines.
Chris Caputo is the flight test director and Chief Experience Officer (CXO) at Vermont-based BETA Technologies where he is responsible for maintaining the company mission focus and culture. Chris is a 1992 graduate of the United States Air Force Academy holding a Bachelor of Science degree in Engineering Mechanics. Throughout his military career, Chris logged over 4,000 flying hours, including seven combat deployments in the A-10 and F-16. Following his time in the military, Chris Boeing 757s and 767s for Delta Air Lines based out of New York City, and has amassed a total of 8,000+ flight hours in over 50 different aircraft.
Ryan is an Associate Principal in the Arup Acoustics, Audiovisual, Theatre and Experience Design discipline team and leads the East Geography. He provides consulting expertise across the aviation sector with experience in terminal buildings, environmental noise analysis, public address and audiovisual systems design, and Urban Air Mobility noise policy and simulations. He has lectured for the Community Air Mobility Initiative's Urban Air Policy Collaborative cohort on noise policy considerations and experiential simulation techniques for community outreach and engagement related to future aviation. He contributes to the operation and development of the Arup SoundLab, a virtual reality room where clients can experience in 3-D an existing or future acoustic environment. The SoundLab is used for a wide array of applications within the aviation market, from optimizing terminal designs to evaluation of environmental noise from existing and future aircraft.
Armed with a Masters Degree in engineering, Olaf has been working to further the development of hybrid-electric flight since 2016. He is the Director of Programs and Deputy Director of Rolls-Royce Electrical, leading the new product introduction and industrialization strategy and execution.
Jen Uchida graduated from the University of Colorado in 2005 with a bachelor’s and master’s degree in aerospace engineering. Following graduation, she accepted a position with the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) as a civilian flight test engineer for the Marine Corps. There she supported the experimental flight testing of the V-22 Osprey, deploying several new and lifesaving capabilities to the fleet and logging over 100 flight hours of special crew time. In 2011 she had the opportunity to attend the US Naval Test Pilot School, where she learned how to relate real-world mission requirements to her work as a flight test engineer and logged 100 flight hours of crew time. In 2012, Jen applied to NASA’s astronaut program and was one of the top 50 candidates for selection in 2013. Following her time with NAVAIR, she went to Gulfstream Aerospace to help lead the experimental test efforts for FAA type certification on the new G500 and G600 programs. Followed by a brief time at Insitu Inc, as their Chief Systems Engineer on the RQ-21A program. Jen is now the Test Engineering Manager at AeroTEC.
Ken Swartz was elected to the Board of Directors of the Vertical Flight Society in 2018 representing the Americas (Canada, Central America and South America) and is the Director of Marketing & Communications for the Electric Aircraft Symposium which he has presented at the past four years. He has been a driving force behind the Vertical Flight Society’s eVTOL News initiative since early 2017 and is senior editor of Vertiflite magazine and the www.eVTOL.news site. Ken is a senior aerospace marketing and communications strategist with Aeromedia Communications working with clients across the helicopter, VTOL and commercial aviation sector, building on 25 years of work as a marketing analyst and PR professional with Bombardier Commercial Aerospace, regional airlines and aerospace publishers. As one of Canada’s leading aviation journalists, Ken has also written thousands of articles helicopter operations, regional airlines and aerospace technology since the early 1980s.
Jannes Neumann is a senior project certification manager for General Aviation at the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). He studied mechanical engineering at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT). Before Jannes joint EASA in 2009 he worked as a technical officer airworthiness at the German Aero Club. He holds a glider pilot licence and is flight instructor.
A graduate from Politecnico di Milano with a Master Degree in Aerospace Engineering, in 1998 Mr. Ricci Moretti joined Agusta Aerospace Corporation in Philadelphia where he led the engineering office certifying a large number of helicopter customizations. Through his career, he has worked on the AW139, Project Zero techology demonstrator, and the Next Generation Civil TiltRotor (NGCTR). In 2017, he moved to Piasecki Aircraft Corporation as the Chief Engineer for the PA890 Slowed Rotor Compound Electric Helicopter. Since 2021 he is employed by Lilium as the Chief Engineer of the certification version of the Lilium Jet. He is a lifetime member of the Vertical Flight Society, where he has served for several years including as the Technical Chairman of VFS Forum 75 in 2017. He is also a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society, AIAA, SFTE, SAE, ASME, ASTM (serving on several committees) and a number of other professional societies in the field of aviation and aerospace.
As Vice President and General Manager at Electra.aero, JP is responsible for all aspects of Electra’s operations. He was previously the Director of Programs at Electra where he led the execution of Electra’s programs. Before joining Electra, he led the development of an eVTOL aircraft for Porsche as Senior Technical Program Manager at Aurora Flight Sciences (a Boeing Company). He is an aerospace engineer from Virginia Tech.
Dr. Ying is the Senior Vice President of Global Partnerships for Ampaire. She is also a Director and Board member for the Lindbergh Foundation, and the immediate past President of the International Council of the Aeronautical Sciences (ICAS) serving on the Executive Committee which leads in shaping the agenda of this multinational professional aerospace organization. Dr. Ying has devoted over 38 years to the aerospace industry, with experience at NASA, Boeing, and most recently the Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC) as the Chief Integration Ofcer. Demonstrating success both at individual and team levels, Dr. Ying has been the recipient of many honors, including the People’s Republic of China Friendship Award, Asian American Engineer of the Year Award, Boeing Professional Excellence Award from the CTO, NASA Group Achievement Award, AIAA Applied Aerodynamics Best Paper Award, and the Professional Achievement Award for Women of Color in Technology. Dr. Ying is also recognized as a Fellow of the AIAA and Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society (RAeS). With a deep passion for flight, Dr. Ying holds a Commercial Pilot License and is an FAA-Certified Flight Instructor. She received her Ph.D. and MS degrees in Aeronautics and Astronautics from Stanford University and BS in Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering from Cornell University.
Kevin is currently employed with Diamond Aircraft Canada as the Director of Airworthiness and Quality, responsible for regulatory matters concerning Diamonds operations as well as all Airworthiness and Quality functions. He joined Diamond after working at Transport Canada Civil Aviation for 10 years with the Aircraft Certification group. He participated in various STC and Type Certificate programs, in a number of guidance material development programs and was a principle participant in the development of the PDA regulations and the CAR 521 draft that was presented to CARAC in 2004.